Zagros: Why is it that you don't accept intelligent design?
Scientist: We hold that all supernatural causes are not part of science.
Zagros: So, therefore, if something is supernatural, then it is not science, correct?
Scientist: That is correct.
Zagros: And, science holds, matter is neither created nor destroyed.
Scientist: That is an oversimplification because it has to be in a closed system and . . .
Zagros: Okay, but generally speaking, it is true, and if I am talking about the universe as a system, then can we accept it as a basic premise?
Scientist: Well, not exactly, it is the law of conservation of mass, not matter, they are different.
Zagros: I am a little confused.
Scientist: That is because you are not a physicist.
Zagros: Okay, fine, then mass is a universal constant.
Scientist: Well, in a closed system . . .
Zagros: What happens in an open system.
Scientist: Well, since energy can escape in an open system, we can lose mass.
Zagros: Wait a minute, I thought you were talking about mass, where did energy come about?
Scientist: I don't have time to explain it all but energy equals mass times the constant (speed of life) squared.
Zagros: Einstein's theory of relativity says that mass can be converted into energy.
Scientist: Well, actually it states that they are equivalent through this formula.
Zagros: Okay, now, then how about me? If mass is neither created nor destroyed, then the mass that is me has always existed, right, but I was born on . . .
Scientist: Okay, I see where you are going here. That is an incorrect assumption. Your mass was neither created nor will it be destroyed on your death, it is mere reconfigured.
Zagros: So, what you are are really saying is that everything that is me is something called mass that was reconfigured from somewhere else and then become me?
Scientist: Yes, you take in mass (food) and that mass is transformed into energy and that energy fuels your growth (mass)...
Zagros: But that implies that energy is not mass, so wasn't energy created by destroying mass. I'm a little confused.
Scientist: Well, in a closed system, energy may be converted to mass. It is documented in Einstein's Theory of Relativity: E=MC2.
Zagros: Whatever. So what created mass?
Scientist: Excuse me?
Zagros: Yeah, what created mass. I mean it had to come from somewhere, right?
Scientist: No, it is neither created nor destroyed.
Zagros: So then mass is God.
Scientist: Where do you get that from?
Zagros: Well, it has always existed, right? It reconfigures into various stuff, right? Isn't that God?
Scientist: But God is a supremely intelligent being that configures the universe.
Zagros: So, you admit that there is a God.
Scientist: No, I am telling you what God is.
Zagros: That requires that you admit that God exists.
Scientist: No, I am telling you that the concept of God is such that . . .
Zagros: And this can be proven scientifically?
Scientist: No, this is the concept of God as given by religion . . .
Zagros: I don't accept that.
Scientist: What?
Zagros: I don't accept that. I only accept what science provides. I just defined God scientifically as the uncreated mass. I said nothing about intelligence -- you did.
Scientist: Fine, but every other person in the world . . .
Zagros: I am not every other person in the world. I am me and I say that the universe is God. After all, God is everywhere and in everything.
Scientist: How do you know that?
Zagros: God told me.
Scientist: How?
Zagros: Does it matter?
Scientist: Yes, it does, because I want to know . . .
Zagros: What? If I believe in the Bible, the Qu'ran, the Torah?
Scientist: Exactly.
Zagros: Why?
Scientist: So I can show you the error of your statement.
Zagros: How?
Scientist: By demonstrating to you that the Bible, the Qu'ran, etc. do not have a God like that.
Zagros: Oh really? So, give me an example of my error.
Scientist: Well, God grants prayers.
Zagros: Did I say that?
Scientist: But those books say that.
Zagros: Okay, define "granting a prayer".
Scientist: You ask and God causes something to happen that otherwise would not have happened.
Zagros: So, that would make me God then right? Because, through prayer, I can command God to . . .
Scientist: No! None of your books say that you can command God to do anything!
Zagros: Okay, so prayer is useless, so . . .
Scientist: No! Your books suggest that God answers some prayers . . .
Zagros: Oh, so God is picky and choosy about which prayers to answer. They answer my prayers but not yours, right?
Scientist: Whatever.
Zagros: How about God does answer all prayers? God answers 'yes' to some, 'no' to others, and 'you have got to be kidding' to the rest.
Scientist: Okay, that's fine.
Zagros: Then science says that a scientist prays to God and he grants them but he only grants some prayers to believers.
Scientist: What?!? Where the hell did you get that idea from! Scientists don't pray!
Zagros: Because you are atheists?
Scientist: No! Some of us are and some of us aren't . . .
Zagros: So some of you pray and others don't is what you are saying.
Scientist: Yes, and . . .
Zagros: So God grants the prayers of the scientists who are believers . . .
Scientist: No, scientists don't pray . . .
Zagros: But I thought you said they did.
Scientist: No! Scientists do not pray as scientists. They may pray as religious people but not as scientists.
Zagros: Okay, only the prayers offered by the atheistic and theistic scientists who are praying as scientists are answered and those offered by them as religious people are not.
Scientists: You aren't listening. We aren't praying as scientists!
Zagros: Oh really? What is a prayer?
Scientist: It is a request to God to do something.
Zagros: You mean, . . . like an experiment?
Scientist: No, you have to get down on your knees, close your eyes, and . . .
Zagros: I don't pray that way.
Scientist: Well, however, you do, you have to ask for divine intervention and . . .
Zagros: I don't pray that way.
Scientist: Well, then, how do you pray?
Zagros: I pray by doing things and God's will be done.
Scientist: No, your will be done.
Zagros: But God is everywhere and in everything, so God's will be done.
Scientist: But God is intelligent and . . .
Zagros: And you are saying that I am not?
Scientist: I have serious doubts. Wait a minute: are you saying that you are God?
Zagros: I didn't say that.
Scientist: Yes, you did. I can play your game too! You implied...
Zagros: I did not state. Your implication is that because I implied, I am.
Scientist: Okay, I will grant you that but . . .
Zagros: No buts. I am no more God than you are.
Scientist: So then I am God, you are saying, as well.
Zagros: I did not state that either. I am simply stating that you and I are expressions of God's will. After all, we were made by God and God knows everything, so therefore whatever God wills, will happen.
Scientist: But I thought we have free will.
Zagros: You do, as far as you are concerned but God knows in advance what you will do.
Scientist: So I do not have free will.
Zagros: No, you do.
Scientist: But God knows what I will do so...
Zagros: Hmm... let me use science to explain it to you.
Scientist: Huh?
Zagros: Yes, does a quantum have free will?
Scientist: Of course not.
Zagros: Okay but if I observe the quantum does it change its behavior?
Scientist: Yes, that is the observer effect in quantum mechanics.
Zagros: So, my will (action of observing) caused the quantum to change.
Scientist: I guess but that is a proof of determinism, not free will.
Zagros: So, my will be done. But how is it determinism?
Scientist: Because your will determined that it would change.
Zagros: So I determined where it would go, so I can determine where it will be in . . .
Scientist: No, you cannot. Quantum mechanics says that one cannot predict . . .
Zagros: Oh! So quantum have free will since the quantum determines . . .
Scientist: (sigh) What does this have to do with . . .
Zagros: So, quantums have free will in a deterministic system and scientists pray to God to get . . .
Scientist: Wait a minute. Scientists don't pray to God.
Zagros: But you said that some do . . .
Scientists: They don't pray to God as scientists!
Zagros: Yes, they do.
Scientist: No, they don't.
Zagros: Yes, they do.
Scientist: No, they don't. Look, you cannot prove anything through argumentum ad nauseum.
Zagros: I agree, but scientists do pray to God when they conduct experiments.
Scientists: No, they don't.
Zagros: They do through their actions, they are praying that the actions will occur....
Scientists: Stop right there. We know this to work because of cause and effect.
Zagros: And this is different from prayer, how?
Scientists: Well, it always happens, for one, provided all initial conditions are the same and the activity is replicated precisely.
Zagros: Okay, so when scientists pray, they have a ritualistic prayer (experiment) that must be precisely undertaken to generate the result (what they hope to achieve).
Scientist: It isn't a prayer!
Zagros: How so? Is the rain dance a prayer?
Scientist: Yes.
Zagros: Why is it undertaken?
Scientist: To get rain to fall.
Zagros: How does it work?
Scientist: It doesn't work. It is just a stupid superstition.
Zagros: So science maintains that prayers of all other religions are just stupid superstitions, while their prayers to their one true God (nature) are not.
Scientist: You are hopeless.
Zagros: Why thank you. Luckily science isn't according to you, since you obviously believe in it.
Scientist: The difference is that even if you don't believe, it happens.
Zagros: Wow! What a powerful prayer! Even a non-scientist can do it!
Scientist: It isn't prayer!
Zagros: Why do you say that?
Scientist: Because it isn't! Look, darn it! We don't have a God that rewards the good and punishes the wicked!
Zagros: Yes, you do.
Scientist: No, we don't.
Zagros: Sure, if you violate God's laws, you sin and you are punished, right?
Scientist: Finally, we are getting somewhere.
Zagros: So, when you violate a physical law, you are punished, right?
Scientist: You cannot violate a physical law.
Zagros: Wow! You do have a powerful God!
Scientist: Nature isn't a God!
Zagros: Okay, so when you ignore a physical law, you are punished. Like walking off a cliff, you are punished for attempting to disobey the law of gravity.
Scientist: You really are hopeless.
Zagros: And you really have a religion.
Saturday, June 5, 2010
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